Ok, so Deb on the Rocks is one of my favorite people. And she wrote a post that is intelligent and thoughtful and probably smarter than anything I will write this year.
To catch of you non-internet-blogger-drama people up: BHJ, also known as Jon wrote a post calling Jen Lancaster something bad...a douche? An asshole? Anyway, something...because he had asked her for advice on getting his novel published (since she are a published novelist) and she told him to shove off because he had written a post calling out fat people for being lazy and unmotivated. Then he got smartassy in his reponse and she got high-handed in her response to him. Specifically, she said she had a 7 figure book deal AND that he should have fun dancing at the deodorant party, by which she meant Sparklecorn, which is put on by a pop culture gossip site Jon writes for, Mamapop. Then she wrote a post about how SHE was going to start a gossip site, only with real - or maybe she said professional - writers.
Breathe.
Are you still reading? Really? Why?
So.
Then Deb wrote her post. About which I am writing a post. Because bloggers are wonderfully self-referential and incestuous, blog-wise, not sleeping-with-your-sister-wise, though God knows there may be some of that, too.
My questions are as follows:
Is it ever ok to call someone on their bullshit? Because Jen's responses certainly were shitty and mean and dragged Mamapop into the fray, which seemed unnecessary, like Robert Parrish's elbows back in the Lakers-Celtics days.
Is writing a post about that really bullying?
Deb says Jen is an easy target for BHJ and his commenting minions because she is fat. I would suggest that she made herself an easy target by acting like a jerk and touting her 7-figure book deal (I wanna see the contract), even in a private email.
Yes, his commenters attacked her and some used bad words. But bullying? This is blogging. This is commenting. This is what the internetz DO - get people all stirred up over some pseudo-controversy and allow them to spew in comment sections. It's like a public service. It keeps people from keying cars in parking lots and shooting up post offices.
Because Jen doesn't have comments on her blog, no one can even go over there and bully her. They are confined to swimming around in BHJ's little pool, where Jen never even has to go.
BHJ and Jen are grown-ass people. Jen is an author and a certified Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter fan. So she, of all people, ought to be okay with people slinging mean, crazy-nuts hyperbolic spew.
Turning Jen Lancaster into a victim because BHJ popped off and his commenters - of which I was one* - attacked her for being rude and clueless and oh, yes, some of them mentioned fat, but this is a woman whose stock in trade is being fat, not someone who is over there behind the potted plant hoping no one notices their plus-size jeans.
So if you run around shouting "I'm fat, I'm fat" and then, when people get angry with you, they say "You're stupid AND fat," is that bullying, or just agreeing with what you already said?
Just asking.
I wish I could leave this alone, but I'm always picking at something til it bleeds.
*I said BHJ could write a better novel with his nut sack dipped in ink than Jen Lancaster ever could. I also admitted that I had never read one of Jen's books, but I just wanted to say that.
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15 comments:
nothing to say except 'nut sack dipped in ink' totally blows away my statement to a friend that 'sausage always ruins the prom'. (my phrase had nothing much to do with the above fray... i just liked comparing it to yours).
And I think JL can take it. She made one sort of ambiguous comment on Twitter that didn't name BHJ. That's it. Not a comment-baiting post, retracted once the goal had been achieved. Everyone is an asshole in this scenario: bloggers, commenters, spectators, you, and me.
To me its one of those things in life where I ask myself if my commentary adds or subtracts. Personally I saw a lot of commentary that in my opinion subtracted from the greater good. And yes, I'm the Pollyanna of The Interwebz and yes, I'm not even remotely good at snark unless unusually provoked, and yes, I really DO wish people would look to the greater good and get along.
I'm only repeating myself when I say there's room in this tent for all of us. Its not like the internet is SMALL ferchrissakes. People with major ego issues bug me, but at the same time, I prefer to keep the dialogue on the high road and not see people stoop to the pejorative to make a point.
Unless, of course, the someone in question is my birthmother-in-law and then all bets are off. Because I'll use "Bitch with a Capital C" at will.
I think it is important to talk about this. So many times bad behavior is excused because it is on the Internet. Would she have treated Jon that way to his face? Would he have retaliated the same way? Who knows. Both were badly behaved, but she had it coming. how rude to throw money in his face! FTR, I went to her book signing and bought the book. I never did finish it...her rampant narcissism turned me off. Her writing style works better in short snippets. BHJ, I think, can write....and I am looking forward to what he creates.
thanks for thinking of all of us with the drama so we don't have to key cars and stomp midgets.
OK, I don't really give a shit about the controversy, but you are so dead-on about how this is a public service the internet provides. That made me laugh out loud.
I tried not to read too much of this but your comment was by far the most entertaining part of the whole thing. I'm stealing it someday.
I just love that you reference Robert Parrish's elbows.
I didn't read any of this but I was pointed to Deb on the Rocks post by someone else and read that. I hate the whole flame war craziness that can happen on blogs. It actually keeps me from reading comments on most blogs. Only if I've definitely got something to say will I sneak into the comments section and lurk around trembling to see if I can get in there and out again without getting shot. But I'm afraid of confrontation so maybe that's just me. I guess it's a public service and I know I'm lucky that I can opt out of the fray if I feel like it but it sure dims my enjoyment of a lot of places. And when I was writing at the Women's Colony there were plenty of days when it dimmed my enjoyment of writing, too. Not enough to stop me, clearly, but it sucked the light out of me.
Tina. Nice. Thank you. And I agree with Peeved Michelle. I'm an asshole. I wrote a post with cruel intent.
Still can't believe, though, that Deb thinks she wrote a post to make the internet a better place. If she had a shred of integrity, she'd cop to hating my guts, using academic and moral weapons to do the same thing to me that I did to Jen (with more straightforward weapons), and being an asshole.
We're both assholes. It's this higher ground dismantling of my character where Deb's up there and I'm down here that – nope – not buying it.
And the only reason it irks me is because Deb's smart enough to get this. It's textbook Nietzsche. Rather than gun straight for me, she used morality - a sneaky weapon indeed - to bash my brains out.
Not better than me. The same as me. Using a campaign against bullying to bully. Crafty, but bullying nonetheless.
So I read BHJ's original post after I started hearing the controversy last week. Then saw this, then went to Deb's, so I could comment without sounding like a hack. Then wrote my own post about controversy, and now I'm back and have to comment after Jon. And honestly? I think I'll jump on Kizz's boat because sometimes the ugliness in these situations is not worth the paper it's printed on, if you know what I mean.
the only tidbits of this that i'd heard about was on jen's blog, which i read 'cause she makes me laugh. her posts were very general and didn't name names.
an outsider's perspective is this: jen and jon need to grow up and play nice, particularly jon. it wouldn't hurt the rest of the internet (deb, you, anyone one else posting about this) to mind their own business.
maybe people are most honest online than in real life - certainly they're less diplomatic - but the ego involved to think this matters is astounding to me.
as far as his original request for help... did he offer to pay her for help in getting published? or did he assume that she should use the resources that she's worked to build and her time (and there've been plenty of rants about advertisers that expect free work from bloggers - how is this different?) and help him out of the goodness of her heart? i can't find it now, but either laurell k. hamilton or jennie crusie (can't remember which) wrote a blog recently on just this thing and why she wasn't willing to look at someone unknown's stuff. have to say that i completely understand her unwillingness to have anything to do with it. i have to wonder, given the tone of the few posts of his that i read, why he was asking a chick-lit author for help to begin with.
Thanks everyone. I really wanted to talk more about bullying than the JL/Jon thing. When is it ok to cry "bullying" and when is it just par for the bloggy course?
It reminds me a little of calling every type of unwanted touching "sexual assault." I have had my breasts grabbed and it was certainly based on the fact that I was of the female gender and it was not wanted, but I have a hard time equating that with rape - just as I have a hard time having one popular blogger calling another popular blogger an asshole and having that be bullying, or having one blogger call another a bully and THAT being bullying.
The violent crowdsourced vitriol and death threats that Kathy Sierra faced was definitely bullying to me. This is something far milder, IMO. Your mileage may vary.
And as far as minding my own business, Ericka, this blog is, in my mind, a media source much like a magazine. I don't know where blogging becomes sticking my nose in other people's business. I may not have good boundaries. But I have a strong suspicion that "mind your own business" means "don't talk about what I don't want to hear about" rather than anything more objective.
Michelle - I will see you at lunch Monday, you asshole. I will be the asshole with the carnation in my lapel.
It's interesting to think about the context, and how we determine what is socially acceptable on blogs. Like, do we think it's OK to call a public figure like Sarah Palin a cunt? Probably not, right? I would have more respect for someone who dismantled Palin's arguments and platform. And kept it civil. There was a good conversation about this over at Gwen's:
http://cheekyketek.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/neverending-story/
I am not sure where I stand on this.
Because on the one hand, yes, JL does market herself as a fat girl and in that way, sure, maybe it's okay to call her fat. But on the other hand, we always label ourselves something that we want to control. I call myself a whiner because it's easier for me to say it than to hear others say it.
By claiming that label first, I'm in control of it, I started it and it's a joke. But when people use it as a criticism, when they call me the "least self-aware person they've ever met" and the "world's biggest whiner" it is hurtful. And it is MEANT to be hurtful. They're not saying that I'm a whiner because I said it, they're saying it because they want to upset me, they want to make me feel bad.
So I guess my answer is no, I don't think it's okay. Because when people say things like JL is a bitch and she's fat, they're not doing it with any intention other than to be snarky or spiteful. It's not a joke, it's meant to sting. And to me, that's when it becomes bullying. It's not the words, it's the intent. When the intent is no longer funny, when it's no longer just a joke, then it's bullying.
But that's just my 2 cents, from the perspective of someone who gets called names on the internet almost daily. I don't think that everyone who does it is bad, I just think that it's sometimes easier to say things than to think about their impact.
Suebob, I am looking forward to seeing your asshole.
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